73 thoughts on “Is Native Instruments ‘Stems’ Audio Format The Future Of DJing…Or Karaoke?”

1. NI took the skill out of DJing, now they take the skill out of remixing.

   1. By that “logic” there’s no skill involved in producing, either…

      1. Not true. You have to do a lot more when you produce that stick 4 fing loops together….. This format is lame. …. plus no side chain functionality means the tracks wont sound good along side the bass……unless the stems implicated this into the files……

2. “You can create new exciting products that will help redefi ne music performance . . . ”

   Yeah, right.

3. does this mean the future of djing is unmastered tracks?

   1. This a good marketing, look.
      If beatport start selling this type of format, bet you have to pay 4 times the mp3 price.
      You can have a mastered version or somethign. To get your tracks 4 stems mastered gonna cost you twice a normal price. all marketing.

   2. As much as I understand this could become an issue, unless one included stereo track is being the final version and others are supportive ones and by default the extra tracks could be muted.

   3. mastering tracks will be a pain in the ass now. And no you will still have to have a decent mix down. So hard work and skill will always outway your shitty ass stems you made from crappy loop packs you downloaded from torrents. Hard work will always outway lazy fags like you.

4. It will maybe a handful of productions be able to get played in this way of format.
   So yes again, the sets would be even more and more boring.
   You can also download tons of loop packs.

5. this is one of the most ridiculous and uncecessary things I’ve ever seen a music developer do.
   What the hell is Native Instruments thinking?

   1. I think they want people to use tracktor instead of ableton.
      If there’s a market for this files great for who ever benefits form it, but that’s beyond. Imagine you can create yourself tracks with content you want, cue points for different parts and all with 4 stereo tracks you can control.
      Then you can play your stuff loading tracks while you perform, you still need some preparation like in ableton, but you have more freedom on the evolution and you can easily blend other people tracks(normal or stems).
      To me that’s preatty neat!

6. Thats cool and all but it will never gain traction with producers. Also that seems to imply a steep learning curve for even DJ’s.

   1. I produce music, dj with timecode vinyl non-sync, with tiny controllers using sync, and hybrid live setups. I’d love to be able to have control over the stems of my tracks while playing via timecode or any other setup on traktor. If this seems like a steep learning curve for you, I’d hate to see how you get along with just anything music tech related.

7. Is this a desperate attempt by DJs to regain some credibility?

8. They might as well just ask producers to give them their Protools sessions files while their at it.

   1. Producers on protools ? Definitely not.

9. i have no interest in DJing, I remember the first time some one said to me in an all nighter many many years ago “that DJ can’t mix” and I had no idea what he was talking about. “MIX”.
   at the end of the day what should surly matter is that the DJ plays music that creates a good night, but unfortunately you will find in the response to this and other DJ technologies that the feelings about how you should DJ can be vey very different.

   1. Yeah, “unfortunately” people have other opinions than you…Why do some people always have to bring down DJing and new DJing technology? You don’t have to give respect to DJs that suck, and most importantly, you don’t have to listen to them! But any time NI or Pioneer reveal any new technology that enables you to DJ slightly differently, people have to let everybody know their opinion of how DJs suck and mixing sucks. Like you say, you have no interest in DJing, so what’s the fucking point? Imagine if anytime there was some new synth technology, like matrix synths or something, people would be like: “MAN, FUCK THAT, I have no interest in that, synthesizers suck, why don’t people make REAL music on da guitars and pianos?? That’s what it’s all about man”

10. Why don’t a midi clock or mtc track?

11. “The idea of selling fixed music will become archaic in the next decade. Why should everybody that hears your music hear the exact same thing, forever, regardless of their sound system, regardless of their location, regardless of what they are doing and regardless of who they are?” This is a silly quote. I recall doing Multimedia training in the day and having a spat with a tutor who was stating that all media will be interactive in the future. He was more or less saying by now all are films would be non-linear interactive media – which I thought was bullshit and time has proved me right within that. The reason being is that we don’t find interactive content rewarding. The same goes for music. I love producing music and playing about with it and changing it, that is an active process. But I don’t do that with other peoples music, I have no need to do that, as it is a passive experience. They are two different things, that fulfill two different parts of me. If I was mixing someone else’s music while listening to it then I also lose of common reference point, I can’t talk to someone about the mix on a new recording as it doesn’t have a mix – imagine a discussion with a friend regarding watching an interactive film that has 20 possible endings – you can’t do it, it is an unfulfilled experience. Really isn’t this just a format for selling, or reselling, sample loops to kids?

    1. I agree with everything you said with the partial exception that we do indeed love interactive media, but only in the format of games. Billions of dollars a year prove that, but nobody wants to mix their own music. They don’t even pay for good sound systems, much less multitrack players with mixing controls!

       This is too simplified for DJs and musicians, and too complex for consumers. Fail out of the gate.

       1. “too simplified for DJs and musicians, and too complex for consumers”…

          I think this nails it.. I completely agree. There may be a small market of consumers that will be into this. These are probably the same folks that have a DJ hero controller laying around collecting dust. I dont see it making a big impact in general though..

       2. A good point. I was thinking about games while musing on this – as I do play games and enjoy playing them. But on the whole games also tell a linear narrative. While GTA gives the illusion of free play it is also a narrative story that has everyone hitting the same goals to get to the next level, with nobody turning their back on crime at the end of the game, unless that is the conclusion the game devs had in mind – you are constantly doing what someone designed and expected you to do, and at no point can you stop doing that, other than not play the game. Almost all open-world games have key missions that need to be fulfilled for the story to advance at the right time, to be a fulfilling experience. Online games are a different beast, the pleasure derived from that is akin to competitive sport – like Fifa or 1st person shooters. I think we need to be careful with language when discussing such things as I have confused this issue by freely interchanging notions of ‘passive/active’, ‘linear/non-linear’ – which aren’t freely interchangeable. In media use the most interesting media I find is TV, something deeper is happening here. When you watch a family sitting around watching TV, as you look around the room some people are just glaring and not watching, their head is somewhere else. It seems that it is fulfilling this deeper human need we carry from the past. It seems to be acting on use as a substitute camp fire, you see the same glare as people sit around a fire at night and stare into the flames. For years we have tried to make television interactive and non-linear but noting has stuck, other that cashing in on phone-lines and on-demand streaming – which isn’t effecting the content or context. I recall them giving sport’s fans the chance to switch cameras, but we soon found out that editing a live sports event is a highly skilled role, that can become frustrating as you miss all the action while your mate flicks on the wrong camera. As with music, dancing and foot tapping are deeply active – but far from a need of deconstruction.

          1. Dont confuse a linear narrative with an interactive experience! Even games with linear narratives will allow hours and hours of free choice and results! Ask players and they will tell you varied stories of their experiences around the outside of the narrative, which is largely told only in non- interactive cut scenes.

             All games are not alike, and you could be surprised at the depth many of them offer, in contrast to the lack of depth that others don’t.

    2. “I recall doing Multimedia training in the day and having a spat with a tutor who was stating that all media will be interactive in the future. He was more or less saying by now all are films would be non-linear interactive media – which I thought was bullshit and time has proved me right within that. The reason being is that we don’t find interactive content rewarding. ”

       This is a silly quote.

       You comments only make sense if you completely ignore the world of gaming, which is now a much bigger industry than the film industry.

       When it comes to soundtracks, at least, most people probably spend many multiples of time listening to generative game music than they do to traditional scores.

       When it comes to pop music – I don’t see the idea of ‘the single’ going away, but there are already many artists experimenting with the idea of ‘album apps’. Bjork, Eno & Adrian Belew are some artists that have done interesting things along this line recently.

       1. I have addressed the fact, see above, that games on the whole are a linear media and are not non-linear. They give an illusion of non-linear play as they let you piss around inbetween those deeply linear narratives – like I said, no one becomes a policeman at the end of GTA, unless the game devs decided that would be the linear outcome of that linear game. You only have one free-play open-world game to play, you get one life, it has no rules and everyone dies at the end of it. I also can’t think of a single time I have enjoyed listening to generative music, as it is unfulfilling. Have you ever listened to generative music from computer games for pleasure?

          1. I spend a lot more time gaming than going to movies, so yes, I’d say that I listen to a lot more music that is at least partially generative than I do traditional scores. From what I’ve read, it’s pretty common for people to spend 10-20 times as time gaming as they do at movies these daya.

             The fact that games have a plot does not have any relevance to whether the score is generative or not. Most games have scores that are based on stem loops so that the music can play indefinitely, but will vary in intensity based on what you are doing in the game.

             Whether you like game music or genre’s like ambient music is personal preference, but not really relevant to your point, because there’s clearly a huge market for generative music, people spend tons of time listening to it, and it’s getting more and more common.

             1. You are on point that people listen to tons of generative music. I think the key is that they don’t actively mix it! It is created based on their other actions.

12. It may be a good thing for turntablism and scratches!

13. Just for the sake of makin’ money and for the drug users….

14. sooo silly.

    we sorta have this already?
    one file that can hold individual bass, drums, melody, harmony, vocal tracks and more …..
    its called a zip. or a rar.
    and anyone can use as they please. oh and its not limited by track count/start points.

    1. And using zips could lead to an interesting concept with purpose with a bit of thought. If you code for the DAW to open a zip file and read the structure of zip and use markers to place it all automatically on tracks in the timeline, and likewise save the stems as a zip file – I’d find that an open concept I’d consider using rather than this silly concept.

    2. You can’t play an effin’ zip file…. wtf?

       1. You can, actually. You can do nearly anything you want with a zip (or similarly bundled) file if you write the software to. Many file formats use this very approach to bundle things up. For instance, right+click on a Mac “.app” file and choose “Show package contents”. Tons of stuff in there, but the user just sees one “file”.

15. NI trying an “apple” branded stunt forcing people into a niche market…about as useless as Tidal!

16. This IS a marvelous idea.

    You can create context sensitive mixes for different venues. Cut the drums for a restaurant background mix. Take out the vocal for Karaoke or to jam along with on your instrument. Solo the drums or other parts for sampling and use in other music. Remix, reharmonize, repurpose, etc. etc. Makes the music far more versatile, interactive and engaging.

    As suggested above, it makes the listener less passive if they can participate in adjusting levels. Also, they can hear parts in isolation and develop a deeper appreciation of the craft that went into the composition.

    Imagine all the ways this could be used with more traditional music styles, too. If stems could be made of major orchestral works to hear strings, brass, percussion, woodwinds, and harp/piano on stems would be pretty slick!!

    Where surround (unfortunately) never really caught on–except in cinema, this has the potential to work in the mainstream because folks will already be carrying the hardware around in their pockets. All that will be required is some software development to take advantage of it.

    Artists will need to decide if they are ready to “release” their source material for this hardcore re-purposing. I think it will add a layer of difficulty WRT copyright. But that would remain the artists’ choice.

    It’s a brilliant move. Time will tell whether folks will take advantage of it. Over the past decade, some artists like Peter Gabriel, Radiohead, Imogen Heap etc. have released raw tracks or stems for download and remixing– and they are really fun to play with.

    1. Can’t we already make context sensitive mixes? I see why you like this are are excited, but I don’t think it can pan out like this. Let us take a classic song, ‘Sympathy for the Devil’ by the Stones. I love that song. Now imagine the original song is recorded using a stem technology on 16 tracks. It would be deeply frustrating that every time a favorite song is played that it wasn’t the professional mix that you love, but a random mix done by a friend or a radio station -‘oh, I didn’t like to Hoo-hoos so I mixed them out’ – we will all be at the mercy from the lack of other peoples taste. A random mix of those 16 tracks done by a layperson? I am not going to find pleasure in that, nor is the song going to become a classic, or which version do you want to be the classic? The reason the song is loved as it is, is because it is static enduring piece of work made by talented professionals that have the skill and talent a layperson doesn’t have. This may be a little old school – but I want my media to be professional finished products made by professionally skilled people. Anyone can mix a song today, but that doesn’t mean it is for everyone. It is like giving the viewer the final edit of a film. Why edit a film? We can all edit a film with a laptop. Here is the reels, now go make yourself a well paced film that is satisfying and rewarding, or, and good luck with that. I just want to watch a film that I find pleasurable without can extra level of engagement. I think we fell into the trend of buying finished products for a very good reason. I am sure the market for unfinished work is real, just not vital or working on any meaningful scale.

       1. It’s easy to make the mistake of thinking your personal preferences can be extrapolated to apply to everybody.

          Fact is that remixing is HUGE these days. Anyone that’s done any remixing is aware that having stems – especially with the vocals broken out – is hugely helpful.

          All NI is doing is standardizing a ‘lowest-common-denominator’ for sharing stems for remixing. Not world shattering – but seems like it could be useful.

          1. yeah, and like standardizing the ‘lowest-common-denominator of anything has ever been a good idea. I’m starting to think what we all need to do is actually support as much of this nonsense as possible and maybe if the world is flooded with it it will finally implode in upon itself

             1. MIDI, VHS, HTML – the world is built on standards that get the job done, instead of trying to be everything to everyone.

       2. You would have the final mix, PLUS the stems. And YOU would be able to mess around with the mix. Not that many people would take advantage of this capability, but many would.

          You seem to imagine the end result is that you have to hear bad mixes by other people. But the other result is that you could hear things differently. And, you could torture other people with your terrible mixes, too. And isn’t that what it’s all about? 🙂

    2. Fantasy Stubs, pure fantasy.

    3. >As suggested above, it makes the listener less passive if they can participate in adjusting levels

       Are you seriously suggesting that you put mixing controls in public spaces? Try that in a real world scenario. You walk into a restaurant. It’s nearly empty because most people can’t stand that three jackasses are hogging the controls and fiddling with the music to the point of annoyance. Too loud, then only drums. Then only vocals with shit tons of delay. Then laughing from the jackasses. Then everything on again at maximum volume. Then only bass… you can’t hear it but your drinks and butt are vibrating. Then we get vocals from three different songs at once, and more laughing from the jackasses. By this point the restaurant is empty because the sound is annoying and nobody can talk to each other, and the owner rips out the stupid multitrack mixing gizmo and files a lawsuit against the company that sold it too them for ruining business.

       Maybe this crap would work in a trendy clothing store for a few months, or a pretentious art installation, but I can’t think of any other public space on the planet where this system stands a chance in hell. It will be annoying. It will be expensive. It will require on-site staff to understand how to operate and maintain it (which won’t happen. Ever!) It will take up valuable retail space. It would require some kind of queuing system and a supervisor in order to determine who gets to fiddle with it and when, and for how long. It would require legal considerations, like what happens if someone pours soda on the machine and destroys it? What happens if someone puts their own music in the system and it’s full of racist content? And the only people that will want to mix their own music instead of eat, shop, use the bathroom, visit with friends, etc will be bored people who are going to do things that drive everyone else crazy.

       Something like this in a public space is a disaster coming at full speed for anyone who deploys it.

17. Only 4 stems? Sounds really limited to me.

18. Luddites frothing from the mouth here: “they took our musics!”

    1. nope, they are not taking your music, they are pretending to give you talent.

19. I think this would be a great concept for video/television. I would love to be able to adjust the mix of films… Boost the vocal track, kill the crappy soundtrack, etc.

    1. You can’t mess with other peoples art based on a whim, next you will be telling me it would have been better if the Mona Lisa was made with fuzzy felt so you can stick on your own smile – haha.

       1. Kurt & Kuwa

          This is an option that creators can choose to provide or not to. It’s not like colorizing black and white movies!

          You already see the feature that Kurt described in many games, where you can customize the mix of music, dialog and ambient effects to your preferences.

       2. “You can’t mess with other peoples art based on a whim”
          Ehm that’s what art itself is…always building on the past, alway trying to make it different somehow.
          Just my little vision of it maybe?

       3. >You can’t mess with other peoples art based on a whim

          Sure you can! It’s called equalizer presets, and they are on EVERY AUDIO RECEIVER EVER MADE!

          lmfao

          1. Everyone’s hearing is a bit different. In my case, I always find myself boosting the highs by 1 or 2 db on every stereo system I come into contact with. But I’m not removing whole parts of the song, or shifting the panning, or changing the space, or remixing the bass. In this sense, it’s akin to being able to adjust your seat in a car. You can’t move the engine to the trunk and rip out hoses all willy-nilly cause you think it looks better… you can just make your experience more comfortable for yourself. You are still restricted to the design of the manufacturer. Because THEY KNOW HOW TO BUILD A WORKING CAR.

             This is art. Art is made with intent (even if the intent is to wing it and see what comes out). But there is little value in being an artist when you have no control over the output. It’s bad enough that so few actually get paid well for what they do. If our culture moves from “content should be free” to “content is just fodder for me to make more content” then the very act of creation is no longer a form of communicating a statement or a moment or a feeling… but rather only exists to propagate itself. Some people might like that idea. Those people are not artists and are very likely idiots.

             Keep in mind, I don’t think STEMS will single-handedly do this. I think it will be decided over years by the culture. It just seems to keep moving in the wrong direction.

    2. Seriously though Kurt, I totally agree. I often hit the mute button on TV shows just so I don’t have to endure the crappy pop song at maximum volume during a time-transition scene. Or I skip the dialog in shows where the background sounds are absurdly mixed, etc. On the whole, I think modern TV/Movie mixing is nearly abhorrent, and it’s way past time to give the user some control of their experience.

20. great discussion you all…like the ol’ art school days…or is that DAZE

21. I don´t think this format should be named “STEMS”, because since many years, the term “stems” is already for something different in the audio world. This only causes unnecessary confusion – hopefully they don´t try to trademark this “name”.

22. this isn’t as new fangled as people are making it out to be, this used to be somewhat common on actual records where people would release 12″ singles and extended mixes… and djs would have to buy 2 copies of the record.

    really i’d rather hear a return to special mixes because there were some great, wild, out there ones, but people aren’t doing that so…

    the only thing for musicians is, you’re basically saying sample me. i’d be fine with that if it was just regular folks making music, but i’m sure people will end up getting ripped off by big producers and sample library companies.

23. “Er… basically .mogg files with another name. NI didn’t invent this ;)?”

24. 64 stereo tracks or no deal! Make them suffer – throw the tracks with no eq, comp, limiting, fx, etc. Screw up the gainstaging, use no autotune/melodyne on the vocals. Let them learn proper mixing =]

25. as a producer myself, there is no way I would give away my work as stems for lazy wanna be dj./producers who will just steal stems, make tracks with them and call them their own

26. Sorry NI im also a Producer and think please stop your “creative” work right now…

27. As a dj (I’m also in a band – vocals/synths) who uses Traktor with the S8, I can say that this is a welcome innovation. This will work brilliantly with the S8’s remix decks. When I used to dj with Ableton, I would spend quite a bit of time chopping up tracks and finding places in them without drums and I would create loops from those tracks that I could use as I blended into the next track. Having one track seamlessly flow into another is what live mixing is all about, and having a piece of the last track remaining in the background for quite awhile and being able to play with it coming in and out with filtering and delay really puts a nice polish on these transitions. Also, being able to mash up any two tracks at will brings a whole new dimension to live mixing. This is tailor made to make use of some of the more powerful features of the S8. Now you can slag off djing all that you want, and if you’re a musician, I can see why you scoff at it, but the fact is that people love to to dance to electronic beats so djing will always have its’ place. Hey, who doesn’t like being surrounded by a bunch of beautiful, half-naked chicks all dancing their asses off?

28. How consistent with this generation of lazy mixing engineers and producers, what happened to the art of mixing?

29. APRIL FOOLS DAY LOL 😀

30. I think the text has an error: “Stems is an open audio file format that basically stores four ‘stem’ tracks (for example – bass, drums, melody & vocals) along with the full mix.”

    Along with the full mix seems to be wrong. These 4 tracks make the mix. So it’s not a full mix + 4 additional tracks.

    1. DJ Tech Tools said something pretty similar:

       “Each stem file, which ends with stem.mp4, contains a single stereo mix and all 4 parts. While larger than a MP3, they are not giant and average around 70mb. Packed in the common and widely supported MP4 compression format, a stem file can be previewed in most media players including iTunes, Finder and more.”

       Maybe this is to ensure backwards compatibility with players that don’t recognize the stem parts.

31. Why not just use Ogg Vorbis? It supports up to 256 channels.

32. How about showcasing this feature with a track that isn’t some stripped down POS “minimal tech house”? Good elfin’ demo! God

33. I just realized it’s April Fools Day, but I’m going to leave my comment anyways.

    Also for those of you knocking this tech, you’re retarded. I mainly produce, dj on vinyl/timecode without sync, use tiny controllers to dj and you better believe I hit the sync button on those, I do hybrid dj sets in Ableton Live, and then just straight up live sets. I’m not the best, but I don’t suck.

    When I dj I play my own tracks as well as others tracks and find this to be pretty exciting. The reason being is I will only have to make 4 stems for my tracks then I can dj them without any prepping that would be associated with throwing them in remix decks or have to rely on setting beat grids. I can just play my damn tracks and take s^&t in and out on the fly.

    Having and using new features does not give anyone the ability to be a good dj. You still have to have dope track selection, know how to read the crowd, and be able to mix tracks that don’t sound like SH!t together.

    Those that are complaining are the same sort of people that bashed CDJ’s when they first came on the scene. I love playing just straight up vinyl, but I also love moving forward with the tech that comes along with electronic music. God, how do you think electronic music started? It’s because people embraced new technologies and started pushing the envelope. Also, a good majority of producers rip samples from other pre-recorded audio as it is! I’ve done straight up bootleg edits along with completely original compositions that have had pretty decent feedback from both.

34. WOW! OMFG. He just managed to replace a 4/4 kick pattern with a COMPLETELY different 4/4 kick pattern.
    this is mind blowing……. EDM is set to be revolutionised……….not

35. “…The idea of selling fixed music will become archaic in the next decade…”
    And in the next decade ppl just sell their samples so you dont have to listen to shit, you can make your own songs! or even better you dont have to do this shit….

36. Im pretty sure that this has been out for a long time now. its called Ableton live….. Nice try traktor… lol
    but you’ve fail to realize that you have just invented ableton.

37. Thanks native instruments for saying. I don’t even wanna fucking listen to the songs the producer spent 1000s of hours learning how to do. I just pretend i made it cuz i have money and beatports.

38. Admin: Personal attack deleted.

    Keep comments on topic and constructive.