Developer Of Classic ‘Devil Fish’ TB-303 Says Getting Knocked Off By Behringer ‘Sucks’

Robin Whittle, creator of the classic Devil Fish mod for the Roland TB-303, says that having Behringer make unauthorized clones of your work ‘sucks’ – both for the developer and for buyers. 

An original Roland TB-303 with the Devil Fish mods.

The Devil Fish 303 is a unique modded instrument that offers new features, tailored to making electronic music, like extended bass response, overdrive control, more flexible synth control, cv & gate connectivity and more.

In the last few days, Behringer has been teasing an alternate ‘Murdered Out’ TD-3-DF version of their TB-303 clone, that Whittle says is an unauthorized version of his Devil Fish 303 design.

On his site, Whittle says that Uli Behringer contacted him in November 2019 about making an official Devil Fish TD-3. They could not come to a business agreement, though, and Behringer has since announced its intent to do an unofficial clone.

“It Sucks”

According to Whittle, Behringer’s plans for an unofficial Devil Fish knockoff ‘sucks’ – not just for him personally, but also for buyers.

Whittle insists that any synth with the Devil Fish branding should use high quality knobs, pots and sealed switches. He notes that “The little RK09K ALPS pots we use in the Devil Fish are excellent in every respect. Not one has failed or even become noisy, as far as I know, since 1993.”

He proposed to create a Devil Fish TD-3 that used high quality parts and would sell for about $300 – comparable to most of Behringer’s other monophonic synths. In a nutshell, Whittle argues that using high-quality parts would mean that Behringer could make a Devil Fish TD-3 that would sound great now – and still work great in 30 years.

Whittle notes, “It would be hard to imagine how the Behringer company, and Uli himself, could earn themselves greater opprobrium, than by riding roughshod over a small synthesizer manufacturer. This is especially so since the copied product is in production”

You can find Whittle’s comments on his experience of getting knocked off by Behringer – along with his relatively favorable take on the Behringer TD-3 itself – at his site.

Would have have been interested in a $300 TB-303 Devil Fish clone that used high quality knobs, pots and sealed switches? Let us know what you think in the comments!

165 thoughts on “Developer Of Classic ‘Devil Fish’ TB-303 Says Getting Knocked Off By Behringer ‘Sucks’”

  1. “Now this, monks, is the Noble Truth of dukkha: Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha.”

  2. I’ve avoided any public comment on Behringer in recent years but this is just sh!t behaviour from Uli. So regardless of what else I might think, this precludes me ever considering any of his products – even the ‘original’ ones.
    I don’t buy things made by child or slave labour; I don’t do business with companies that destroy communities to exploit the planet (eg Nestles); I don’t endorse misogyny, racism or homophobia in any form; so I’m not about to support a company that callously rips off small businesses.
    I think Robin is being remarkably restrained by merely commenting that this ‘sucks’!

    1. “I don’t do business with companies that destroy communities to exploit the planet” I highly doubt this – I mean if you rare posting inhere you are likely on a device that at least in part has exploited workers that created components of your device.

    2. a small company whose entire business model was copying a roland device, complaining about another company copying roland, who OFFERED to cut them into the deal and is completely within the law lol. Some people man. no helping them.

      1. Sh*t! You beat me to it! That’s exactly what I was thinking! I LOVE Behringer! They put devices in the hands of us paupers that can’t afford the likes of 303’s and especially classic guitar pedals that now cost a fortune on the 2nd hand market, that can be got from Behringer for around £15!

    3. I read the exchange yesterday and came away thinking that they both exhibited poor behaviour and dubious judgement in this mess.

      Uli:
      1. His offer is reminiscent of the underworld element , in essence we can do this with you for a paltry sum or without you for nothing at all.
      2. And make no mistake, Uli’s sudden urge to involve “creators” and smaller companies is more a public relations than genuine good will.
      3. Uli is being whom he is and always has been, a shrewd, ethically challenged, opportunistic business man.

      Wittle:
      1. However brilliant his modifications are, it is based on an existing design by Roland. The notion that his creation is original is a bit off, he is doing what Behringer does on a much smaller and less sinister scale.
      2. I came away thinking Wittle was a bit greedy as Uli in their exchanges however it does not change the fact that Uli’s proposal was at best insulting and at worst an offer veiled with the threat that they would proceed regardless.

      I came away from this thinking I admired Roland all the more and their refusal to “chase” ghosts and the past. They have their sights on the future. And that is where progress and innovation is made.

    4. Robin was being too geedy. Asking £300 000 per year of production is way way over the top. If he had maybe negotiated Uli’s offer up by a reasonable amount he would be quids in now and with more prospects.
      Behringer runs on very small margins.
      What a shame.

      1. i agree with you on that point, i think they could have worked something out beneficial to both parties, and it would have been awesome for consumers to be able to get a devilfish endorsed td3, even if the price was higher due to higher quality components, or even with regular behringer components.

    5. “I don’t do business with companies that destroy communities to exploit the planet”

      You definitely do, this way or another. Hypocrisy Much?

  3. dude. you figured out a couple of hacks before other people did. you’re not worth a billion dollars. should have taken what they offered. on another note, fuck Behringer suing Moog. Real dick move, Uli!

    1. Here’s what you’re overlooking. (1) Robin Whittle came up with an idea that nobody else had and turned it into a profitable business, (2) by agreeing to recreate his work for Behringer for a one-time fee of $15,000 he would essentially be putting himself out of work, (3) it looks like Behringer is considering using his work without compensation anyway.

      The music tech industry tends to underpay engineers; we do it because we love the work and love music. In an industry where the major companies pay most engineers $60 – $100K based on experience, $15,000 is a tiny amount of money.

      1. Well, Whittle tried to poker with Uli – and lost. If he thought his mod design has such a high value, he should have gotten a patent on it. Without a patent, everything is copied eventually.
        If his high quality mod/repair is as good as he says, he wouldn’t have to be afraid of a cheap, non lasting copy.
        Yes, from the moral side, Behringer is questionable in this case. But since when does moral count in business anywhere in the world?

        1. Behringer’s business model stands apart from all of the established synth manufacturers.

          Moog, Sequential, Roland, Yamaha and Novation release their own unique designs (or reissues of their own designs). Korg has released several ARP synths in collaboration with David Friend of ARP. However, apart from those they release their own unique designs and reissues of their own gear.

      2. Robin had sole use of his invention for the original TB-303. He still does – for the original market he staked out. The fact that Uli didn’t offer his platform for the same modification is up to Uli, Robin has no claim on it. Whatever happens, Robin still has original market of unmodified TB-303’s.

        Now, should Uli use Robin’s circuits without permission? Depends. Reverse engineering is a proud old engineering tradition. It’s friggin fun too! Robin took a risk not applying for a patent, and he’s been fortunate not to need it until now.

        On the other hand, has Robin produced the ultimate TB-303 mod? Doubtful. He’s more than capable of further modifying Uli’s product. No?

        There’s nothing here but a business deal that should have been kept out of the public, except someone wanted to stir up consumer sentiment. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

      3. that is exactly the point here. In the lifecycle of the devilfish upgrade he created around 350 units in 15 years and with availablility of a cheap Berhinger branded version, nobody would use his service anymore.
        Plus the TD 3 release is compatible with the devilfish upgrade, so ideally he might see an increase in business modding Behringer TD3s ,but that won’t be happening when a Behringer releases their own devilfish version. Live and let live…

      4. just playing a bit of devils advocate here, how much business is robin getting these days when OG 303’s are so hard to come by and command massive prices?

        i reckon he should have negotiated a deal, he’d have made some money out of it, could have influenced on a higher build quality, could have QA’ed on the authenticity, and then get his work out and in the hands of loads more people.

        i think the whole thing is just a big shame. if i was rolling in the cash i would without a doubt get an OG 303 and pay for the devilfish mod, but alas. we all lose here.

      1. also considering the components used are all worth pennies, literally. a vco filter and patch point, that’s all basic minerals turned into simple components, on a basic circuit board, designed by a Japanese engineer like 30+ years ago who is probably happy his idea is still alive in many many iterations. This company crying foul was itself one of MANY 303 clones already available.

      2. These values seem a bit low. You’re TB-303 pricing seems ridiculously low. There’s a good condition unit on Reverb at the moment for €3400. I see you’re using $ but in € you can about 20% sales tax on to any price that’s imported into the EU from the US or Australia. Then there’s the shipping and insurance to and from Australia. The real life cost is more like €5000. You might be lucky enough to pick up a used Devilfish through auction for about €3500-4000

      3. That gives no one a right to steal or be unethical man. What other things in life can’t folks afford that would give a different manufacturer the right to steal and then resell them to their benefit? Give it some thought.

        1. behringer’s products are all fully legal in US EU China etc, not stealing, as every single thing they have done has altered the existing circuit in some way, and patents do not protect synths the way people imagine. You can look up their legal statements on it, Behringer is doing the same thing Devilfish did with a Roland device, a further iteration. If you are not aware, Chinese business law also causes anything produced there to create a free patent for re-design, this has been this way since the 80s or 90s.

  6. Sounds like he wanted too much control and $: “the final design and component selection being subject to my approval” “and I would profit from each machine sold.”
    Greed kills.
    Does he hold a patent for his 303 mods or something?
    Uli gave him the chance and he failed to make a deal. Whittle should move on and stop winging. ?

    2. Your part of the problem .
      You sound like you use a cracked copy of fruity loops that you got off some infected torrent and then get mad when your Pc keeps freezing . The Mod this guy did for the 303 is legendary and it should be respected not stolen .

      1. Nothing is “stolen” here. Even the 24 LP ladder filter is not protected anymore, so anyone can build and sell in. The same goes from the light bulb to the telephone. This has nothing to do with violating licence rules and copyright laws of software.

      1. not sure that correct, the sell low cost budget Audio equipment to the masses, they don’t rip anyone off. This guy totally unprotected his business, never struck a deal when he had to and is now quite sore about it. Big fish eats little fish as they say

        1. “Don’t rip anyone off” – ???? Behringer !!!??? LOL. That’s all they do. They’re known for it.

          I’ll never buy a piece of Behringer equipment for as long as I live. Literally the cheapest components around and no way their stuff will last. It’s absolute junk. They‘re stuff isn’t professional in the slightest.

          1. “Not professional”? So what? They’re not made to be used by Paul Mc-Bleedin’-Cartney! They’re aimed at amateurs and semi-pro musicians who don’t have the resources of professionals! They know their market very well and that’s why they’re so successful! Plus, lots of their guitar pedals are indistinguishable from the original pedal they clone. They may not be as sturdy, but for home studios etc they’re great! A pro sound at amateur prices…what’s not to like? And the same goes for many of the recent modules they’ve released after they bought over TC Electronics.

        2. The Devil Fish and x0xHeart developers would argue that they were both ripped off by Behringer to develop the TD-3. Roland could argue that Behringer ripped off their TR-808, TR-909, SH-101, VC-330, TR-606 and TB-303 designs. Sequential could argue that their Pro-One design was copied, Chris Huggett could argue that his Wasp design was copied (although some are claiming that the Behringer Wasp is actually a copy of the modern Jasper synth), Tom Oberheim could make a similar claim, along with the guys at Moog Music.

          And that’s not even getting into Eurorack modules or the Behringer Euro cases that remind quite a few people of designs from other companies.

          The list is getting pretty long at this point.

          1. And all cars today are rippoffs of the older automobiles. All bicycles are rippoffs of the same design. The list is endless. That’s market and business. You can only survive if your product is better quality, cheaper or more innovative than that of the others – or you have a patent. So the fishman should stop whining and go on….

          1. Capitalism is amazing! It’s the reason the modern world exists. If it wasn’t for capitalism we’d still be living in the Middle Ages. Capitalism has brought more people out of poverty than any other system.

    4. Yes. Even as a one man company he should have spent thousands of dollars for trademarks, patents, and lawers to protect his work and claims. 😉

        1. WTF does that even mean? He modded an existing device that was no longer produced. You do understand what modding is, don’t you, or are you just trolling?

    5. Cade, you’re probably right here. It’s all about greed. Uli’s greed.
      Uli seems to know only one language and that’s greed.

      In this case Uli probably thought he would get all of Whittles skills and ready to go for a Behringer clone without the usual R&D needed.

      We know, yet, nothing about the terms of this contract and as far as I’m concerned it might have been as easy as Whittle being presented with a ridiculous royalty fee.

      1. It supply and demand, BH sell low cost and cheaper component selection, a 2x price TB303DF wouldn’t sell the same no of units to make it profitable

    6. Really funny hearing those criticism from you about greed coming from a small company/person. How does the Behringer boot taste?

      Edit: looks like you are getting BTFO already. When you grow up and have some self worth remember this phrase, “F*ck you, pay me!”

    1. No one but a few nerds know about defilfish – behringer sells to everyone. They should commit esch other to a deal both take profity from. Stop muddy discussions on the internet, it just produces more anger than it will.help..

    4. Even for modifications R&D can be quite time consuming and expensive. A board layout is a few weeks or a month. A thoughtful design is months or years.
      Just copying things (avoiding having to pay an engineers salary for R&D) can make for cheap and fast, but it sucks for the people who put in the time and care to make a unique instrument.

    1. It doesn’t matter -why- Robin doesn’t take the deal, that doesn’t give Uli the right to rip him off regardless. Some people here seem to think it’s just some added resistors to a TB303, but the Devil Fish mod is just as famous as the TB303 was at some point and is much more complex than that.

    1. Patent’s not relevant on anything after 20 years, the legal question would be whether Behringer is infringing on the trade dress (probably not), copyrights or trademarks (more likely) of the Devil Fish.

      I’d be surprised if Behringer’s copy actually ships with the ‘DF’ name, for this reason. It’s going a bit too far and could make the company an attractive target for a lawsuit.

      It’s similar to why the TD-9 isn’t shipping.

      The 909 is protected by Roland’s copyright on the samples, so there’s no way for anyone to make a legal 909 clone. Behringer – and buyers – will have to settle for something similar sounding.

      It’s like when K-Tel used to sell compilation albums by ‘The Original Artists’, and ‘The Original Artists’ was the name of their fake band!

      1. Haha, that would have been deviously clever, but according to wikipedia, K-Tel “negotiated directly with artists and labels for the rights to reproduce their original recordings, in the process also securing a long-term asset through adding those recordings to their catalog.” Assuming this is true, then K-Tel’s compilations used the original recordings rather than re-recordings by a “fake” band.

        K-Tel actually won a Grammy for Hooked on Classics. As their web site (www.k-tel.com) notes, they managed to acquire the licensing rights to 10,000 songs.

  12. this raises a very interesting idea, we applaud more exclusive ’boutique’ remakes of classic instruments, but are angry with Behringer for doing it. i have mixed feelings and don’t know exactly where i stand on the issue, but this Behringer wave has had quite an effect. this specific case does seem pretty blatant though, anyone is free to mod anything, including a 303 but having not come to an agreement on his specific mod, doing it anyway and adding ‘DF’ to the name is pretty unsportsmanlike.

  13. Companies do not work by ethic standards, otherwise we’d all live in No-Profit Land. “Cloning” a good is either lawful or unlawful: morals is subjective, law is objective. And given that Mr. Whittle doesn’t seem to be filing a suit against Behringer any time soon, then he’s just complaining about the fact that a big company can make cheaper products: it’s as if a shoes artisan complained about Nike making relatively cheap shoes. He even got the chance to partner up with Behringer, something very few companies would do: if he thinks his product is too “élite” to be produced for us plebeian, well, good luck.

    P.S. you could build a synth made out of diamonds, but if the electronics are the same, even a cheap plastic one will last 30 years. E.g., anybody still using their full-fledged plastic Korg M1? Not everybody needs hyper-pricey knobs. Otherwise, Roland, Korg, Yamaha and many others would’ve been wound up many years ago.

    P.P.S. Whittle likes clones, actually: as long as they don’t clone HIS products. Quite the hypocrite stance.

    1. I think you are spot on with “elite” and “plebeian”. Here are parts of one paragraph from Robin, that struck me most:

      “I need to make good money on this collaboration. You will make much more than I do, which is fine, but only if you abandon what I think is habitual thinking about low margins.
      (…)
      Your larger synth recreations are also surely expensive in terms of tooling, parts and production costs – so I understand you pricing these pretty close to the bone too.”

      And about elite part:

      “However, with the huge unmet demand for TB-303 clones, and the simplicity and small size and weight of the TD-3, I think you are mistaken in setting its retail price so low. You could double the retail price and, I think, hardly lose any sales. People would respect the machine more if its price wasn’t so cheap.
      (…)
      I think the BWDF should retail for at least USD$300. Be happy making money from it – probably to invest in other analogue synth projects which no-one but you would attempt.”

      I repeat:

      “People would respect the machine more if its price wasn’t so cheap.”

      That got me “WOW!”

  14. copyrights expire. this is a good thing – because if they did not, transistors, diodes and every other electronic component would be protected and require licence fees or could even not be used. robin whittle created his devil fish using these expired copyrights. now his own is expired too. what’s the problem?

    1. God damn genius-level **** there. I

      If Behringer made it a full-on Devil Fish and sold it for $303, people would be lining up with cash in hand.

      The fact that Behringer won’t do this and would rather screw the developer, regardless of the bad karma, shows that the company creates these controversies intentionally to keep people talking about the Behringer.

      Somebody mentioned that it’s a Trump tactic and it’s true. Like Behringer or not, everybody knows who Behringer is and that they’re making cheap synths.

        1. “So are you claiming people paying double the price, because 1 guy made a mod, is a fair deal?”

          Nice straw man argument pulled out of nowhere, dude!

          If you reread my comment, I said that if Behringer made a full-on Devil-Fish (with the features of a Devil Fish, using the high-quality parts used in a Devil Fish and with the collaboration of the creator), people would line up to buy it for $303

          On the used market, real Devil Fish synths go for 10 times that amount.

          1. Maybe some are crazy enough to do so on a original Roland tb303. No way anyone would pay double for again just a simple mod on the behringer version. Even if it were to use high qualitiy components it would only be a few dollars more. You’re living in fairyland not in reality.

  17. Nah. What sucks is people using the 303 still. That sound is done. It was great all the through the 90s then got so boring and monotonous. This is coming from a guy who lived for acid music back in the day. Let it die.. it’s like listening to Eddie Van Halen playing his same old licks over and over, u can only take so much

    3. bill i can wholly relate to this with added bonus of hating the acid squelch since its inception.
      the problem however is not the instrument but the way it has become a genre cliche.

      808 was also declared dead years ago only to come back and shape a whole new genre and actually become more relevant and used than ever.

      the problem is sinply the lack of creativity but what else is new. fact remains these old classics have buckets of character. lowering the price and making it available to the unwashed masses might well actually bring musically something interesting to the table.

      808 trap and drill were born in the ghetto , vocoders found a completely new ways of being abused.
      think there may be creative life still in 303.

  18. I sympathise with Robin, but in the end, it appears that he may have been a little greedy. Good luck to Uli. As an aside, I would say that the Abstrakt Avalon is the ultimate interpretation of the 303 (only currently available in the used market, as they may have stopped producing these for good now), but the Behringer TD-3-DF will probably be the best in terms of price and availability.

  19. a lot of people are defending behri on that one forum that we all know, which is kinda ridiculous… why is behri the only company that every month or even every week goes into some kind of controversy? there is roland, korg, dsi, moog, etc… none of these companies goes into scandals, and for sure not every freakin month!! and yet, there are still a lot of people that defend this kind of attitude… just because they get cheap toys that usually dont work as expected and are not that good of clones either. but with so many controversy around and uli trying to clone even new and existing products /m32 for example/ he will be soon in troubles for sure if he dont change his attitude.

    1. What is the controversy?
      That they make clones?
      Moog Music cloned the Minimoog Model D, and a couple of Modular systems, that another company with the same name once made.
      Korg Cloned the Arp Odyssey and the Arp 2600, neither uses the exact components of the original, and to some extent also use surface mount components, unlike the originals.

      Roland, with about every new synth they introduce, they face a lot of criticism.
      Berhinger releases more synths than roland, though.
      And Yamaha also facing a lot of criticisim with every synth release, but they release even fewer than roland.

      Behringer simply makes more news worthy items compared to other brands.
      And because there for some reason is a lot of hate aganinst Behringer out there, articles about Berhinger generate more interactions, which result in more ad revenue for the publishers. Some even write obviously biased articles, to attempt to engage readers even more.

      There is no story here.
      Behringer offered Devil Fish a deal, that were fair according to their business model. Devil fish, is not a well known brand, so putting them on behringer synths, would not generate a lot of extra sales. But it would potentially generate a lot of extra brand awareness for Devil fish. Calculating the number of extra units the brand would sell, and the actual profit margins on those, and 15K would not have been such a bad deal, in percentage of the actual profit margins, generated by the Devil Fish brand. And their brand awareness would grow a lot, soemthing they could use for future business.
      But Devil fish did not want that kind of business model, for their products, so no deal was struck, and that is the end to that.
      Devil fish’s only asset was their brand name, they hold no patents, copyrights, or trade dress over the actual mods.

      Behringer some time later publishes a mock-up of a version of the TD-3, that they may or may not put in to production, that has some those mods in there, that Devil Fish has no rights over, at all.
      And the guy behind Devil fish revelas parts of the conversation, leaving out other parts, and media picks up on it, because it is a story with behringer and that will generate clicks.
      Had they not cared about clicks, they would have eiher not cared about the story at all, or asked Uli first, and getting the full story, finding that there was nothing worth reporting.
      It is clear from the conversation that the guy from Devil Fish, did not understand the Behringer business model, and why they were offering what they were offering. It also seems from mail conversation, that he has a view that is overinflated when it comes to his product. So any serious journalist would not want to publish, as there is no real story, and the person risking most harm from publishing a serious article is the person that feels like he is being treated unjust. But in the click censtric news world, publishers don’t care about that. They spin, angle, or don’t bother to find out the full story, if they can publish something that generates clicks, to increase their ad revenue.

      Sure Behringer isn’t lite every other company. They ask the community, what they should produce next.
      Uli, the head of Berhinger is active online.
      And they have a business model that is unusual in the music electronics industry, as it hasn’t been considered big enough to sell small margin hardware and make money from quantities, but they have proven that it is possible.
      Clones of classic synths, has been a thing since the 90s. And Behringer only got in to that business a couple of years ago. So in that regard, they aren’t unusual. They just does it at a lower price compared to most.

      1. How have we arrived at forum where people
        defending Behringer say that DevilFish is not a well known brand? In the world of TB-303, the name “Devilfish” is (and has been for over a decade at least) •THE• most respected and coveted and cherished and admired brand in all of Acid, period. Only the FR-777 and Beast-303 have as much fame, and more recently the Avalon and RE-303.

        Behringer isn’t even on the map in the TB-303 world… they have earned nothing in the way of respect because they have not demonstrated any innovation … they just replicated

  20. just look at guitar pedals clones. modders get ripped, nothing new.
    proposal’s not good? sack the guy, so defensless that he’s hiding behind them bloody knobs and lucred over someone else’s machine for decades.

  21. Not interested in either device, but the incident does show how Trumpian Uli Behringer actually is. No respect for anyone else’s intellectual property. Then, again, did Robin Whittle ever consult with Roland about selling modified TB-303 units? Or did he just do it because he wanted to? Whose shoe is on whose other foot?

    1. Which definition are you using?
      1) When an uneducated/undereducated opinion or baseless rumor is repeated enough over time that it become believed by a certain population set to be fact.
      2) Attractive articles of little value or use. trinkets baubles cheap finery knickknacks ornaments bibelots gewgaws gimcracks adjective showy but worthless.

    4. “No respect for anyone else’s intellectual property”
      In this case, there is non, and never was.
      The other synth clones behringer made, some have once been protected by patents that now has run out, so free for anyone to copy. Even the new company called Moog Music, cloned the Minimoog, made by another company that went under whose name they got the right to (it doesn’t matter that Bob Moog founded both companies, it is still a new company, that never made the original, and when Bob Moog was alive, the made the voyager, instead of the Model D).
      In the past, Behringer have been sued, over mixer design and guitar FX pedals, but as far as I recall, those settled out of court, meaning that there is no definitive answer to the question, if Bheringer infringed more than is standard in the business… And if they did cross the line, they since changed their business.

      What did Uli do, that was Trumpian?
      Offer a deal, that was then rejected, and didn’t say a thing about it. Doesn’t sound at all like Trump. It was Robin Whittle that started talking about the deal. And not disclosing the whole story.

      Uli, seems to have offered a pretty fair deal, based on their business strategy. 15K, would make for quite a bit of the actual profit margins on the units sold by bearing the Devil Fish name, it wasn’t a well known brand. Berhinger doesn’t have that large actual profit margins on their products. Devil Fish, did not want to be involved in such a business strategy, so no deal was struck.

      On the other hand, by the press generated by this story, the Devil Fish name, is much more known today, than ever before. So someone has used the media to get attention to their brand. And it wasn’t the person you said was Trumpian.

      1. ” Offer a deal, that was then rejected, and didn’t say a thing about it. Doesn’t sound at all like Trump. It was Robin Whittle that started talking about the deal. And not disclosing the whole story.”

        Hello? Offer a deal, that was rejected, then post a mock-up on facebook called “D.evil F.ish Murdered Out”? Forgot to leave out the entire part that made Robin respond in the first place and that is the actual cause of concern in this entire thing? Hello?

        Behringer has been making more revenue the last few years than companies like Korg, 15k is absolute peanuts and just because you didn’t know Devil Fish didn’t mean that for a -ton- of people it is a very highly regarded brand, as are you forgetting that that 15k is not just for an unlimited license to his brand name, but also his -active- work in making the design and his -active- work of promoting it afterwards, as well as putting his own business out of order as it directly competes.

  22. Behringer offered to pay him 15K, which is really far from nothing. Everyone knows that the key to Behringers success is affordable products, so demanding from Uli Behringer to double the price on that machine so that he could get a decent share of each sale is a bold move and prone to fail.

    1. 15k for the rights to a 25 year old brand & business is nothing.

      I would have been much more interested in a TD-3 variant that uses high-quality components, especially if guided by a guy who knows his shit inside and out.

      Behringer’s compulsion to only make cheap knockoffs seems short-sighted, because if they used their monopoly power and inexpensive Chinese labor to make serious pro-level gear, they could be making boutique synths for $300, which is still dirt cheap.

      1. Monopoly? What is Behringer monopolizing? The cheap synth market? Even the free VST arena has no monopoly over anything. This isn’t like the power company or cable company.

      2. analOG is again deciding words have no meaning and are freely interchangable.

        1) monopoly claim is utter bs. friendly advice, hyperbole like that makes one question either your intelligence or age.
        2) you state mislieadingly as if uli wants to outright buy the devil fish out completely.

        the proposal:
        Here is my plan. Together we design a new 303 with a complete new layout and all features to make it the best Devil Fish version ever produced (smiley face). We would pay you an agreed amount for your design work and perhaps you are willing to put your logo next to ours..

        this reads very differently. he was offered a sum for his knowhow.

        3) his customer base relating to tb303 is 306 people. to even call that a brand is hilarious.
        25 years and 306 clients is actually a sign that the “brand” i question isnt worth much if anything.

        4) you seem to fault behringer that make “pro-level” gear “dirt cheap” which…yeah sounds about right.

        however, if you are concerned about chinese labour, before chucking any stones i´d make sure i dont actually have anything produced in china. because if i did i would come off as a massive hypocrite right?
        but thats me though.

  24. That’s the business world.

    It sucks for many small business owners who are competing with online companies like Amazon.

    A local music store in my city is on its last leg thanks to online retailers like Amazon, Sweetwater, Musician’s Friend, etc.

    1. Yeah, you can’t run a small business in a global market and not expect an uneven playing field to dump you occasionally. I’ve produced IP at the fortune 100 level, and it’s not about moral choices and ethical conduct as much as it’s about protecting your product space and attacking others. At that level your corp law dept is a profit center, not a cost center. There is a constant current of IP investigation, litigation, and exchanges to satisfy the need for protecting your competitive space.

      Robins work, however you measure it, is derivative of both the host TB-303’s architecture, as well as contemporary design practices. It is not a standalone piece of work. The modification relies on the market penetration of a pre-existing popular product. It uses common design practices of the time. One skilled in the art could easily produce similar results at this point. The IP just isn’t worth that much – after all, from their perspective, it wasn’t protected at all. Even the quantity – 306 units – doesn’t attest much to much market dominance.

      This was never going to work out anyway. The price for a basic Devil Fish mod alone is over $1,000. It was never going to fit in a $303 dollar box. Heck even the options are more expensive than Uli’s existing clones.

      Sad to see this all in print though.

  25. As long as the VCO, tune, ADSR and transformers stay electric do whatever you want. Werry pleased with this news. Please make moar. Like this one with sounds for days.

    1. Admin – I think the challenge here is this is a really personal attack on friends and heros and half the comments here are so ignorant to the root problem that it makes it personal…. it’s as if Behringer have hired a troll farm of zombies just to countermand the situation.

  28. I don‘t care how much it will cost. But after i get this machine i will directly donate 10% of the price i paid, to Robin Whittle (DevilFish), as an appreciation for his intellectual property in that machine. I wish everybody would do that. Just to wipe out that karma, this machine will have, when it arrives.

  31. I can understand both sides. The devil fish guy has a reputation he cultivated over decades and Behringer now wants to swoop in and use that name to sell a cheap knock -off. Behringer would likely sell a lot more simply by writing “Devil-fish” on it. So they offered him $15k to do that. I’m sure Behringer already has the circuits built. They just want the name recognition.

    That said this guys demands are a bit much. Devil fish holds no patents and doesn’t have a leg to stand on. All he did was slightly modify an already existing product for which he didn’t pay anyone royalties. He just made a mod and profited from it.

    Well, as it turns out technology advances and people are no longer paying $4k for og 303’s and his simple mod is no longer worth what he wants to charge for it. His money ship has sailed.

    I would have taken the $15k and been happy about it. Maybe tried to negotiate $20 k.

    This dude is acting like he invented the 303 and holds the patent.

    I don’t think Behringer even had to offer the guy anything. Does he own the trademark for the name Devil Fish?

    2. Concerning the following: „ All he did was slightly modify an already existing product for which he didn’t pay anyone royalties“.

      Just a analogy: If i would do races with my audi and would pimp it to hell on my style by hours i spend, and i would win races with it or even close … Do you really think i had to pay Audi a cent, that i made a horse out of the initial pony ? They deliver the platform (the machine) there is nothing that can hold me back to change it my way, once i bought it.

      You do understand the difference, right ? That‘s what modding is. The platform allready exists, and i change it to my gusto. I am not obliged to ask anybody to do so. He (Whittle) did not build a Roland TB-303 platform. He only modded it to his and also many of us who liked it, taste. Price = TB-303 (TD-3) and Value = TB-303 (TD-DF) with mods. Thats the point to consider here.

      1. But he mods them FOR SALE. That’s the difference. You’re doing for you. I think both sides are missing the potential benefit here and haven’t tendered good faith offers in public.

        1. John, yes sure FOR SALE. But you must send him your own machine, that he can mod it. It‘s like you bring me your car, i tune it to the stage you want, and then you have to pay me for the work i did and materials used on it. No need to ask for permission from the manufacturer. Or another example: If i would trigger a bomb with a tb-303 😉 , Roland wouldnt be sued either. So if i own something and give it to somebody who adds his intellectual property like a mod into it, i have to pay him, unless he does it for free. However, nothing is for free.

          1. Micheal, yes. I agree with your modding principles. I missed your emphasis on royalties. I don’t think royalties apply for personal ownerships issues here. This is a royalty issue between two manufacturers making product branding and uniqueness claims. This is where royalties operate – as a monetary instrument in business arrangements that satisfy cooperative initiatives. If it sounds particularly mealy mouthed, it is. That’s business sometimes! 🙂

    3. I can appreciate you are attempting to be rational here but really, you don’t know what you are on about. What’s next, a Behringer Beast 303? (bb-303)?

      It’s not about the circuits … it’s about the support, the time, the care, thr giving to the community for decades… the mystique, the honor, the acid warrior, and the respect.

      Behringer has no place in any of this. At best their crappy pre amps in the 90’s made for a solid gabber kick drum. Everything they are doing now is the antithesis of techno, acid, community and respect.

      If kids cannot grasp that they they are already too lost and will keep making that reverb drone patch techno until even the pink drinks dry up.

      1. you are free to gatekeep for techno and acid but your comment reads like satirical comedy to me.

        the acid warrior! i am dying lmao. the honor! the respect! lmfao.

        but to your point if i got it right:
        behringer is producing very affordable classic knockoff synths, but they are antithetical to acid community and if younglings dont understand that they are bound to be making droney reverb techno until… some BS about the effeminate drinks.

        right. so there is a bunch of nonsense if i ever seen one but i want to say thanks for making me laugh.

        good luck with that dialectic though, sounds like a proper wittgenstein no doubt.

  32. Just want to remind people that the shear fact that we can talk about things like morality and “right and wrong” in the synth world is an indicator of the privilege we’ve had compared to some other industries. This is in stark contrast to the way things often go down in the Silicon Valley tech world, which is inundated with white collar con artists and blatant abuse of the copyright system. It’s cutthroat competition that can dim your view of humanity if you’re around it for too long.

    Indeed it’s sad to see synth ideas getting ripped off, but overall I find the music tech world to be respectful of originality, with the Eurorack marketplace being the best example.

    1. Love the perspective but this is techno, not the valley. The roots are far deeper, the respect goes back to the 70’s. The dedication Robbin has put in makes a valley nerd look like chump change… even a 100hour/week techie isn’t even coming close. Apples and oranges but i do appreciate the comment regardless.

    2. “…overall I find the music tech world to be respectful of originality, with the Eurorack marketplace being the best example.”

      The Eurorack world has been sucking hard at the teats of Serge, Buchla, Roland, Moog, Korg et al. since it came into being! Examples off the top of my head: Doepfer SEM-filter, 303-Filter, Wasp-Filter, Moog-style-filter; Intellijel Korgasmatron (!), Dual ADSR (Roland System 100 inspired), Atlantis (101 inspired); Make Noise Maths (Serge derivation) DPO (Buchla inspired) etc. etc.

      Personally I think this is a good thing: many of the above I have in my rack. And none of them are direct copies; there is always something a bit different. But there is very little in the hardware analog synth world which is untouched from copying of one sort or another.

    3. that is a nice and levelheaded perspective. i admire the ability to look at things from a birds eye view and be appreciative more fo the things we have. you are a good dude.

      maybe i am cynical but there is no discussion to be had here. this is a soapbox for people to hate in, nothing more. there are no factually based opinion, just look at the comments. its just blind hatred.

      if my classic gear was losing value due to behringer knockoff, maybe i´d be pretty pissed too.
      but lets not dress that as any sort of concern for morality and ethics.
      what i am seeing here is elitism, simple as that.

      ironically the same kind of elitism deemed the original to be but a toy, only to be resurrected as a cult classic by a subculture and subcultures emerge mainly from dirt and poverty.

      lowering the entry level financially is a positive, as it opens door for the newer generation to make something new out of these instruments in the same way the pioneer before them did.

  33. Uli seems to have stepped in it here. I have no problem with cloning an old design and have frequently defended Behringer’s right to do so, as well as pointing out that other companies do similar things without getting hated on, eg the Volca FM.

    But leaning on a one-man show (or maybe a two-person show, if it’s a husband-and-wife team) is quite different. It’s not reasonable to expect to license the product of such a small business for a flat fee and effectively shut it down. Having said that, I don’t think Robin Whittle’s negotiating approach is ideal either and can recall past episodes of him getting into verbal disputes with other 303 aficionados.

    It may be that negotiations turned sour and Uli Behringer teased the artwork of a cloned Devilfish mod as a rude chest-thumping display (which is the sort of thing he’s done before). It might even be that this is theater to be followed by a public reconciliation and subsequent product launch. Whatever the case, boutique design/craft and factory manufacturing aren’t a good cocktail.

  34. Are there people here that honestly can’t tell the difference between copying a product (Behringer) and adding original mods to an existing product (Devil Fish)? Or are you just so quick to jump in and defend Uli that you don’t bother to think it through?

    1. It’s not like either one of them built a new product off a pre-existing popular product and thus rode the coat tails of someone else’s sustained success.

      Honestly, the sad part is, it was a zero-sum game. Neither said’s case is ideal. And thus the court of public opinion is split.

  35. I know too little to judge but I wonder what the real loss is for Devilfish….
    It also appears to me that a lot of us here seem to have forgotten that ‘Devilfish’ was open for a deal with Behringer in the first place.

  36. God. Damn.

    Can I just clear up one point here? It’s you’re. YOU’RE part of the problem. Not YOUR. Unless you mean this is your part of the problem. When you are saying someone is part of a problem, it’s YOU ARE part of the problem. Or, contracted to you’re.

    So it’s…
    Is that your dick?

    And…
    You’re a dick. Not the other way around.

    We’ll go over the difference between we’re, were, where, and wear in another thread. Along with to, two, and too.

  37. Why do people crybaby about Behringer and their build quality? I have the Behringer Neutron and Model D and love ’em. And the build quality is better than my Korg MS-20 mini.

    If you don’t like Behringer, then go buy the $5,000+ pieces of vintage gear on sites like eBay and Reverb, and leave the Behringer synths for we comparative paupers who can’t afford (and wouldn’t pay that much anyway if we could) the exorbitant prices for decades old expensive pieces of gear with questionable reliability.

    If you buy any non-name brand products (i.e. generic food brands, knock-off clothes, knock-off furniture, knock-off wallets/handbags, watches, etc) then just zip it with your crybabying about Behringer.

    1. Behringer has made some products in the past, with poor build quality. But in reality they have for many years also had products, of typical quality, or even good build quality.
      Some people only have Berhinger experience with their poor quality products, and a lot that have, also seems to manage to spread their experience, to others that have no first hand experience.
      So there is a quite wide spread idea that behringer products are of poor quality, even among people that never touch a behringer product, much less any of their recent synths.
      That idea is no used, trying to elevate other brands, and bring behringer down, because they have no real arguments against Behringer. Some probably believe this to be true. But others are just doing it, because they dislike the idea of a company making products that aren’t premium prices, possibly bringing down the value of specific products they own, or making the gear filled studio accessible to a lot of people, and not something to a small exclusive club. Or they are just fanboys of other brands, often for no real reason. Among them, many think that Moog Music today, ever made the original Minimoog Model D, but that company went bust, so any new Model D, made by any company is a clone, no matter if the company holds the rights to the Minimoog, and moog music brand.

      Keep in mind that Samsung, Sony, all used to be considered poor quality alternatives. They both started their journey to their current status by making products, that wasn’t of the highest quality, but showed the wolrd that they were on to something, and then slowly they bacame known as premium quality brands, even though some of their products, keept being of poor quality.
      The same thing could happen with Behringer.

      And when it comes to things like hand built, that has little to do with quality. Machines can be made to work with finer details, and much lower tolerance, the only issue is really quality control, but using x-ray machines, and automated process with the help of machine learning could inspect every single unit before shipping, and make sure everything is perfect, thus removing the risk of a faulty component or a bad solder point, something that can happen both with humans and machines doing the actual work, and be something that will not even result in mal function for several of years, despite it actually being the result of an issue with manufactoring.
      So people really should not buy in to the superiority of hand build.
      At the end of the day, it is the inspection that is the important bit, and there x-ray and machine learning would easily beat out the humand eye, both in terms of accuracy, and speed.
      The advantage hand built has today, is that each unit at least goes through some point of manual inspection, even if it is just every person, seeng that they have done their work. But usually, diagnostics are performed on each unit. Whereas processes that mostly rely on machines, typically only a few units per batch are tested, thus units can be shipped faulty, because of an error that occurs on a per unit level, and not per batch. And with no eyes actually inspecting each part of the process, there could be a solder point that is clear to the naked eye that it isn’t good enough to hold over time. But the naked eye can’t see air bubbles and dirt inside solder points, X rays can. Naked eyes can’t see how the comonents look on the inside, xa-rays can.
      So a product built to the highest standard using machines, and proper inspection, would be supreriror to hand built, and that sort of technology is getting cheaper and cheaper, so it could very well be the future of production at a company like behringer. At some point, it will be a process cheaper than having to deal with replacing and repairing units faulty by the lack of quality control. And it would also reduce the risk of faulty batches, as an error would likely be discovered in the middle of the production of that batch, and not at the end, by picking a few samples.

  38. Uli offered Robin $15K? That’s an absolute insult. They will sell at least 30k units at the proposed price. They basically want to pay him <$0.50 cents per units while taking control over his 25 years reputation – all for a quick buck. I probably would have thrown out about the same $300k number for perpetual use of devilfish name in consultation. They could have settled on some number in between.

    ..and as far as who's to blame.. it's not Robin Whittle's name that's the common denominator in these scandalous posts that come up every 3-4 weeks .. it's the other guy.. enough said.

    2. The Devil fish name doesn’t have a brand recognition of anywhere near 30 000 people, try 3 000, at best. Meaning that even if they were to sell 30 000 units, only a small fraction of those would be sold on the basis of the Devil fish brand.

      He would have gained a lot of brand recognition, by signing this deal, something he could have used for future business.
      And he would have gotten 15K, and that would probably be quite a large percentage of the actual profit margings of the units sold, thanks to the brand, because Behringer wasn’t going to make it as a product with a much higher margin, selling much fewer units.
      If he thinks that deal would hurt his brand more than what he would get back, he was free to just walk away, and that would be the end of the story.
      He doesn’t hold any patents, copyrights, or trade dress over the actual modifications, all he has of any value is the brand name, and that doesn’t equate to a lot of extra sales. Behringer are free to make a version, with the same modifications, without his approval. And if they make if dark, they are free to call if DF for dark face, for example… Devil Fish writes their brand name on the units they have modified, so there would be no confusion.

      Behringer isn’t involved in scandals, it is just that a lot of people for some reason dislike Behringer, and write biased opinions against them, that aren’t based on facts.
      And a lot of sites, like to publishng stories about behringer, as they result in a lot of reactions, which translates to more ad revenue. Some even write biased stories, in an attempt to further engage the readers. That is click based economy for you.
      How many articles have your read about the quality issues of the Moog One? And the issues remaining, even after firmware updates. At points even gotten worse due to changes to the firmware update procedure.
      How many articles, would you expect to have read about behringer, with similar issues in the same time period, had they been the ones, making that synth?
      Moog has a loyal fan base, and not enough people outside it that cares about Moog issues. Besides, that fanbase is often uneducated of the history of the Moog Company, and think the Moog company that exists today, made the original Minimoog. That is of course not true. So the Minimoog Model D, that that company made, was just as much a clone, as the ones Behringer made, even more so, since their looked a lot more like the original. Korg cloned the ARP Odyssey, and did not get hate for that. They even cloned the ARP2600. Neither being absolutely true to the original, as neither uses the exact same componets, and to some extent use surface mount components. Moog and korg buy components, and to some extent pre assembled products from china, made in factories, with no better working condition or wages than the Behringer one.
      So the reason you think Behringer is involved in scandals, is because if biased reporting, that is designed to generate clicks.

      If I’m not misstaken, the so called Minimoog Re-issue had added functionality, that was also found of modded versions of the original, but not in the actual original. They did not credit any after market modder, or pay royalties.

  42. An easy math. It should be 30-50K unit sold. If Behringer is making 100 usd profit on it it is between 3000000-5000000 usd – profit!. So 15k i really funny amount. Be serious.

    1. Yes, be serious.
      Serious is not making up a sales figure, and making up a profit margin, and then times those figures with each other, and get a made up profit, and pretend it is of any relevance.
      Even if the retail price of a unit would be 100 dollars over the bill of material, we have the retailer, sometimes separate distrubutor that get their piece of the margins. Then there is the transport from factory, to distributor/retailer, including all transports, and then there is the tooling in the factory for making the products, and then the R&D, and even though Behringer might be copying the circuit signal flow, they still have to design it to fit their product, and their production-line, and sometimes find or make altenrative components to ones that are no longer accessible or not sold at the volumes Behringer needs. Add to that, that there will be warranty repairs and replacements, which cost have to be covered by the margins as well.
      So a list price of 100 over bill of material would be far less in a real world scenario. But now that figure is still just made up by you.
      Behringer has designed their production line, for mass production, and they make money by producing large quantities of the unit at a low price, with small margins. So that is no where near a 30% pure profit margin, as that 100USD would at least be, considering the price Berhinger would sell such a product at.
      15K is not an awful lot of money. But the Devil Fish brand, isn’t a well recognised brand, in broad terms. Adn that is really the only thing that person would be bringing to the table, as he doesn’t hold any patents, copy rights, or trade dress on any of the functionality of the mods. With this deal, the brand recognition would have grown a lot, and that would potentially be worth some money, if he would make use of that. For him to make 15K as pure profit with his modding business isn’t that easy, so, it would still be a relatively large sum of money, compared to what he currently owns from his branding.

      It wasn’t a great deal for him, but considering what value he would actually bring to the table (not a lot), it wasn’t realistic of him to hope for much more than that, and he could just end up with getting nothing at all, and no brand recognition, and behringer still able to implement all of the same modifications he uses, if they so wish (as he doesn’t have any IP over it), and that may be the end result here, but behringer hasn’t even commited to making this version of the unit.
      If his argument is that such a collaboration, despite the much increased brand recognition, would still end up devaluing his future business more than the brand recongition and those 15K, well than he was right to walk away, but then he can’t complain about it afterwards, and trying to make Behringer the bad guy. He did not want the deal, for whatever reason, and that was all his decision.

  43. The market for Behringers 303 clones is only as big as it is because they fall into impulse buy toy category – I would wager the majority of interested people don’t have any connection or interest in acid music and doubling the price would force them to come to terms with that.

    Mr Whittle confused his small market of enthusiasts and devotees with Behringers huge market of bedroom hobbyists, tried to use leverage that didn’t actually exist, and missed out on a paycheck as a result.

    1. Reading his mail, makes it quite clear that he thinks that a Devil Fish modded 303, is much more of a musical instrument, than most others would agree with.

      I think, he thought that this was his big break moment, that major record deal (90s type) of moment. The head of a compnay got in touch, so he seems to have though he was sitting on a gold mine. Unfortunately, that head of the company was Uli Berhinger, a person that via various forums on the internet has had direct contact with a lot of people, without them sitting on any sort of gold mine. It seems he didn’t understand what little value he had to bring to the table. No patents, No copyrights, No trade dress, for any of the important bits, all he had was a brand name. A brand name, with a recognition, perhaps of a few thousand people at most, something that would not result in a lot of extra sales. His brand recognition, would have grown by a lot, had he agreed to this deal, however, but that of course would not mean anything, if all he could do with it was keep modding expensive original TB303 and some expensive clones.
      He didnt seem to understand the Business model of Behringer, low real profit margins, but at a high quantity.
      All was there for him to see, if he had looked at the situation.
      The thing that wasn’t obvious, but seems suggested now, is that Behringer reach out to various of brands, and asking for collaborations. And if they can’t strike a deal that fits their business model, Behringer just walks away, and make something else, or make that very thing, if there are no patents, copyrights, or trade-dress holding them back. But he should have seens that was the thing that was going to happen to him, considering the situation, despite him not knowing others seemingly been in the same situation.

  44. By his own words… Uli called him first and offered to make a deal, and this guy didn’t see the writing on the wall and take the opportunity… that’s on him.

  45. ^ so if some person contact me and says hey I wanna buy your brand new $100k car for $500 you’re supposed to say yeah cool let’s me a deal?

    1. Not even close.
      He was offered a chance to increase his brand recognition several times over. Something, he could have made use of, if he would have wanted, thus made him a lot of money in future business.
      And he was offered compensation, not a lot of money, but he didn’t have much of value to bring to the table either, as he holds no patents, no copy rights, no trade dress for functionality, all he has is a brand name with little recognition.
      He was free to decide if he wanted to accept the deal, and he didn’t. But then that was it, for him. He got to keep his “brand value”, that he was afraid would take a hit, collaborating with Behringer.
      So he lost nothing by walking away, neither did he gain anything.

      Let’s be realistic. how many extra units would Berhinger sell by putting his brand on them? And with the small real profit margins on their products, how much extra money, would those unite equate to? Realisticly, if 1500 extra bought the unit, because of that brand name, that would be a good turnaround, the actual number buying for that brand, would probably be less. Well that would only make him 10 dollars per sell he would have generated, and that is not a lot. But given how small actual profit margins Behringer have on their products, it would make for a quite big portion of the actual profit margins. I don’t think the number was unfair on Berhingers part, given the situation, it wasn’t a lot of money, but Berhinger with their business strategy, would not be making a lot of extra money, by using his brand. He wasn’t interested in a collaboration given the business strategy, and he wasn’t forced to. But then he would neither get the money, nor the increased brand recognition. that is the nature of saying no to a deal, one is not preprared to take.

      2. hey jon, thanks for helping me regain bits of my sanity while reading the comments.
        the amount of absolute nonsense here is staggering.

  46. This is a legit internet meltdown! Longest thread I’ve seen on here thus far. Next time an offer comes from a multi-million dollar company, prob best to let your lawyer handle it.

  47. Admin: Personal attack deleted (name calling).

    We encourage readers to share all types of viewpoints, but it can be done without making personal attacks on others.

    Keep your comments on topic and constructive.

  48. All the people that dont like Uli, why do you buy stuff on the internet, and why dont you go to your local stores to buy your stuff,… you are killing your local businessman,…

    See nobody cares,… so uli go make some nice synth gear!!!!

  54. I remember the good all days when I was able to purchase a Moog Model D for 300$, Moog Source for $150, Sonic Six for $200 and many others for a decent price. Thank you Uli for making vintage synths affordable for the masses. Currently I have the Model D, K2 and Pro~1 and have a great time using them.

  55. Haters gonna hate, but I don’t see Behringer building anything (except ARP) that is currently in production by other companies. It is nice to have access to new “vintage” synths at non-vintage prices. My two cents. Behringer is only helping rather than hurting the industry.

    1. Funny that you reply that to a post on a product that is currently in production and being produced by Behringer. Even the Model D was still in production, as was the MS20, as were many other products Behringer have released over the past 30 years.

        1. It was in production when the Model D came out, they ceased their production a month or two after the Model D’s release citing a drop in sales.

          Just because a company gets away with something or does something technically not illegal doesn’t mean it’s ethically just or in any way good for the market to begin with.

          1. “It was in production when the Model D came out, they ceased their production a month or two after the Model D’s release citing a drop in sales.”

            Fake news – that’s exactly the opposite of what Moog announced.

            Here’s Moog’s actual statement:

            “Orders for the synthesizer quickly outpaced our initial estimates, leading to the addition of a night-shift to meet demand for the iconic instrument. Our parts-inventory for the Minimoog Model D project was originally expected to span multiple years of manufacturing, but is being consumed at a much higher rate than anticipated. Thus, this second historical production run of the Minimoog Model D will reach completion much earlier than intended, and this marks the final opportunity to acquire a new Minimoog Model D.”

  56. Admin: Personal attack deleted (name calling).

    Also, you’re using multiple names to comment with (Two tone, Marc), which will result in your comments being flagged as spam.

    Keep comments on topic and constructive.

  57. One criticism the DF developer had of Beri that I agree with is the name of the product “MurderedOut” – really weird. Maybe “BlissedOut” would be better- as a nod to the festival vibe…

  58. I wonder how all the classic hardware guys feel about everyone knocking off their stuff?
    Compressors, EQs, you name it… even in plugin form, so stop whining, because you use them too.

  59. Poopy – I’d love to see where you got the information you cited about drop in sales for the Moog Model D corresponding to the discontinuation of production.

  61. The Devil Fish guy do really need a reality check.
    He didn’t invent the wheel, he built a business upon a modification/addition/improvement or whatever you want to call it.
    The most of his business was done in the late ’80s – ’90s, times have changed and the hardware market is no longer the big deal it was.
    Copying someone’s work is never ethically correct,
    but after 40 years c’mon,
    what Behringer did should be considered hardware preservation.

    Anyway, let’s account the following points as well.

    By the 1984, Roland claimed they sold 10 thousands TB-303.

    How many of those units – after 40 years – are still around in working conditions to represent his potential profit?

    A 10% of the whole production would be 1000 units, which is also a bright hypothesis considering not even cars survive in an amount of over 10% in just a 20 years life span.
    Obviously musical instruments aren’t cars, but just giving you a rough idea of the destiny of any manufactured item.

    Imagine how many persons bought this piece of plastic back then to create ‘guitar basslines’ for little more than 100$, forgot it and tossed it away disappointed.

    Now, considering that the most of the Devil Fish mods have been made during the late 80’s – 90s,
    among the original units left – how many fools TODAY are buying an original TB-303, with original parts, AND sending it to the guy to get it modded?
    IMO the answer is next to zero, but let’s generously say 10 units per year.

    If Behringer really offered to Whittle $15000, realistically they offered to him the income of 50 units to be modded.

    Take the money and stop whining.

    It’s only thanks to Behringer that I can have the little acid sounding toy (mods included) I always wanted.

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